New Transform Tool w Lattice Deform

I would love to see this feature too :)

Some work is being done on a LPE which does that, although I'm not sure if it works with groups. It's called (I think) "Lattice deform". About the skew feature I don't see any difference with what we already have.

some links to existing blueprints…

Deformation Envelope LPE - Inkscape Wiki:
<http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Deformation_Envelope_LPE>

Creating Live Path Effects - Inkscape Wiki:
<http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Live_Path_Effects>
Envelope Deformation - Inkscape Wiki:
<http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Envelope_Deformation>
Latice Deformation - Inkscape Wiki:
<http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Latice_Deformation>

… though I don't now the current state of them.

"About the skew feature I don't see any difference with what we already have."

I wasn't aware that there is a graphical way to visually in real time edit the skew. I forgot horizontal skew handles on my design here. But I feel it would be easier as an artist to do this with nice real time visual feedback.

All in all this tool would be awesome.

> I wasn't aware that there is a graphical way to visually in real time edit the skew.
I would say that's already implemented. Click two times over an object and you will get the skew and rotation handles.

Yeah, I missed that one--and I've been using inkscape for a long time--just shows you how much it needs more transparency to the user.

I think my solution is more elegant and transparent.

I disagree completely :) Besides, have you tried reading the manual first? ;)

Manual's are for sissy's. :-)
I like learning from feeling out the app. Personally, if I have to open up a manual to learn something, I feel like that application has failed in that way or in that feature.

The interface should be self teaching. <-- and this isn't a new concept.

While I partly agree with you, you're the first person that I know that didn't find the rotate and skew controls by himself (in several years of treating dozens and dozens of Inkscape developers and users). You've to keep in mind that UI is a compromise of functionalities for the average user not for particular user cases and thus I think the current system is good. Every now and then I find bug reports that ask for things that go against the currently established paradigm of tools that Inkscape uses in --I think-- a consistent way.

There is nothing wrong with proposing new things and I don't want to refrain people from voicing their opinions by saying this, but lack of understanding of how the app works sometimes leads to bug reports of "selfish" nature, those that only satisfies the needs of a particular user without being aware of the needs of the average user or the usability and design targets that the developers had set a long time ago. For instance, you're mixing the lattice deformation with the skew controls with the scale and rotate controls. This has several problems:
1- The lattice deform already exists and it will be implemented as an LPE, which is an effect controlled with the node tool. Mixing controls of the selector tool (skew) with those of the node tool (lattice) isn't not consistent and a bad idea IMHO.
2- Mixing the rotation and scale handles is a bad idea IMHO. I think I would be hitting the wrong handle because of its proximity.
3- Users who want to use the lattice don't necessarily want to skew things and viceversa. So by "simplifying" things you're actually making them more bloated for people who just want to do one thing.
4- With your system you're leaving behind the vertical skew handles. What about users who want that?
5- Skew, rotation and scaling are transformations that depend on a center. In the current system the center can be controlled while in the skew and rotate mode. You left that out.
6- Your system needs an extra keystroke (L). How do you plan to make that evident to the user? (And now don't tell me that you plan to tell the user to read the manual! ;)).

By the way, how did you rotate objects before?

> The interface should be self teaching. <-- and this isn't a new concept.
It already is. Look at the status bar message: "Click selection to toggle scale/rotation handles". While this principle is true, it shouldn't be a way to scapegoat the UI at first chance. Even the best UIs require some effort from the user. In Inkscape's defence I've to say that it only requires you to read the status bar.

> Yeah, I missed that one--and I've been using inkscape for a long time--
How long exactly? Might I invite you to take a little more time to experiment with Inkscape? And how old are you? and what's your previous experience with computers? I ask this because I can't picture your needs without hearing a bit about your past computer experiences. There is a project --that develops really slowly-- called Kidscape, which is Inkscape for kids. The aim is to offer a parallel working UI for kids and/or people who just want an easier/simpler interface. Your idea of collapsing rotating and scale handles in one tool mig...

I was about to write a pissed off reply, but fortunately Pablo replied first saying the same I'd say, but in a more calm fashion.

I don't think it's a good idea to dumb-down an application because people is lazy enough to not RTFM.
I have a pretty vast experience with computers and although I try to find out how new applications work by myself at first, I go to the manual if I can't get something as I expect.
It's impossible to make everyone happy with an interface, so there has to be a balance between ease of use and power, but it's not always possible to cover both fronts. That's why the project Kidscape started.
The more advanced users don't want an oversimplified application, they want flexibility and power. And having to read some manual pages to use a powerful application sounds like a reasonable compromise, don't you think?

About the feature of lattice deform itself, it would be obviously a good addition to inkscape.
That would be the solution of the limitations of the current deform LPEs, since you can't mix perspective with curves or envelope distorts.
A simple example would be to place a logo on a cilindrical surface (rotated on the X axis). I tried everything and it seems almost impossible to achieve with inkscape.

the skew function didn't pop out at me... I could rotate fine.

Unfortunately--you all seem to misunderstand me. I am a professional artist. I have been using vector applications and photo editing applications for 10 years now. I do have an expertise that I can lend.

Self teaching: The manual should be built into the application and it's various features. So you can get the information in small little chunks. <-- but this is aside from what this post is about.

The L is not a keystroke, but a button that appears next to the selected object to change the mode of transformation. It is a toggle.
You could rename it something else, maybe--"Toggle Transform"

I use a tablet and my keyboard is not always readily available, and having to toggle things so close to the object I am working on--would save a lot of time.

Don't bother getting angry--maybe you are just missing something. We are not in an elite club here, this is the ultimate democracy and a lot of great ideas are floating around, just keep your mind open.

I also work on an open source application as a UI designer (MyPaint), and when we disagree, we table our ideas and try to find a middle ground--we don't freak out. And usually that middle ground is better than both ideas individually. We create synergy.

> I do have an expertise that I can lend.
In what field and with what software?

> Self teaching:[...]
Why didn't you read the statusbar? Really, i'm not being sarcastic.

> I use a tablet and my keyboard is not always readily available.
Do you realize that this is a REALLY important fact that you didn't tell? ;) Now that you shed that light this could be expanded to a full transformation mode specially for tablet users, where keyboards modifiers appear on canvas as small helper widgets, not just for transformations but every tool.

> Don't bother getting angry
I'm not ;)

> We are not in an elite club here, this is the ultimate democracy and a lot of great ideas are floating around, just keep your mind open.
With all due respect, to me you're the one missing the point. Being partial to an idea is not the same as being unfair to you. The best software is not the one which agglomerates all the ideas floating around, but the one which implements the best ideas in a cohesive way. To me, your idea is good but needs development. There are already a lot of questions that you left unsolved. I'm not picking you, I'm encouraging you to improve your work.

> I also work on an open source application as a UI designer (MyPaint)
I like your app.

> and when we disagree, we table our ideas and try to find a middle ground
That's what I did in comment #10 ;)

> we don't freak out.
I didn't ;)

> And usually that middle ground is better than both ideas individually.
Again, read my comment #10.

One last thought: the fact that I'm persistent and vehement with my opinions doesn't mean I want to put people off.

Best regards.

Guys, if you want to see where I am coming from check out my website. You'll see, I'm not a 12 year old boy making silly suggestions. I use inkscape professionally, everyday.

http://www.seanjmacisaac.com

My suggestions arent about making this software into an illustrator clone--but to make inkscape better.

Guys, lemme chime in.

First of all, there are two ways to activate rotation/skewing handles:

1. Double-click
2. Shift+S

The second thing is that a separate transformation tool makes a perfect sense. But before that we have to decide how to REALLY deal with transformations.

Currently Lattice Deformation is an LPE. As we know from AI, deformation can be destructive and non-destructive (the Tweak tool analogs as tools and effects).

So either rotation and skew gain correspondent LPEs, or lattice deformation becomes a destructive tool.

And, btw, for really non-destructive adjustments we DO need a new complete effects API. LPE simply doesn't cut it.

> You'll see, I'm not a 12 year old boy making silly suggestions. I use inkscape professionally, everyday.
I never said otherwise ;) But good artist are not necessarily good interface designers, and viceversa. There are still many questions from my #10 you left unanswered.

I don't judge ideas by previous merits of the reporters. I don't check professional trajectory, blogs, portfolios, etc of reporters. The fact that you're a professional doesn't mean I've to take your ideas for granted. So, improve your idea, give it some focus, resolve the loose ends I talked about and, essentially, make it more consistent with the current workflow that Inkscape has already targeted. If you find flaws in the current paradigm, detail what is your usual workflow and where do you feel Inkscape is lacking (and how to improve it, of course).

Regards.